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Combining Effects
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The GIT!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Althalus wrote:
As GM you could ask about some side-effects of the two substances.
I already have full miscibility rules worked out for my campaign Wink
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I just went through the book again and found this about combining effects.

Example 5 Guiding Flame on page 126
The Alchemist makes a heatless, flameless light in a 25 foot radius. The light causes no damage (which he could have done by combining an Effects roll in terms of Opposed for Light and the damage column and increasing the complications.. this answers the question I asked, you can combine effects on a table. I should have looked through the examples first. But at least it got some activity on the board.

Philip can either shield the torch to hide the light, or cancel the spell at any time. How does he cancel an ongoing chemical effect with an act of will at any time? He can because it is described as a spell. He can shut it down instantly.

So he could have had a glowing flask instead of his branch with rags, and explained the light as a glowstick, instead of having a stick with glowing cloth on the end of it that has no flame, or at least not flame that lights anything.

I guess I see things different then the other folks on the board. I see the chemical reasoning and natural substances as trappings for the Alchemist to justify his magickal workings. He uses a handful of 'dry, hot essence' of chemical to explain why it will burst into flame when thrown. his pyromancer counterpart just uses his carved sticks and pendants and names of Angels to get the same effect, but it is both justification and trappings for the working of will.

So I think personally, that an alchemist could through a flask of material and it will explode on impact and evenly spreads the effect of the spell in the entire area of the spell crafted, even if the ground is soft and springy and the flask would not normally break. The effect is instant, as it is with other spells crafted on the tables. No special flasks or enhanced glassware needed. The items are a trapping for the working of Will.

let's look at something that goes boom. Players are stuck on top of a building with bad guys below. They want to kill everything below them.


A pyromancer casts a spell and creates a 100 foot radius and has the spirits burn everybody for 6 L damage. he could have used the People column but he has no allies in the area. Not subtle and hanging worthy, but bear with me.

An Alchemist cannot be selective, he burns everything in the area, because his trappings are not as precise, he uses chemical justification so he uses the Area column, not individuals.

So he creates a powder of hot dry, explosive intent and throws this lump of material and it goes off. Same damage, in a 100 foot radius. this means he gets burned as well, he can only throw it 25 feet. hence the hiding on a building top, I just want to look a the top end of the chart.

He chemically justifies the 100 foot radius as being high explosives like TNT, RDX or nitroglycerin. Except those chemicals have not been invented yet. The best 1636 has to offer is gunpowder grenades. And they will not cause a blast in a 100 foot radius. To cause an explosion in a 100 foot radius he would have to throw a LOT of actual chemicals, and not a single flask

So how would he explain the power of the blast? chemicals? or Magick?

How in the 3 or 4 turns of preparing his flask of chemicals does he create a substance that he knows nothing about in his reality. My answer is he does not. He uses the chemicals as trappings.


And finally lets look at transmutation of lead into gold. An alchemist can make lead into gold that lasts for an hour or a month. Unless he has a cyclotron hidden in his pants, how do you chemically justify transmutation? Does the flask have to be lead lined and will the material cause illness?

No, because it is Magick. It's all just a trapping.
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The GIT!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a very nice, long post but what point, exactly, are you trying to make? I don't think anybody has argued that Alchemy is not magickal; obviously it is as it's under the magick heading of the rulebook Confused

My only issue was you trying to have a combined potion in which the two effects happen at different times. Here I strongly argue against. Otherwise I don't have any issue with combining effects Rolling Eyes
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well part of the post was to respond to the chance of vials not breaking on impact mentioned by raikenclw. The miss chance with a thrown object I agree with. It's why Alchemists need good throwing arms (and Athletics skill). Althalus and Raikenclw were talking about battle bottles and special flasks. I would argue that such things are not needed, the reagents are just the items used to focus will and will behave in whatever way the caster wants once the spell is cast (in both the ritual sense and the throwing sense Smile )


The other point was that there was a chance the target might not be affected because of interaction with beer/wine, or has skin covered etc. I would argue that those points are moot, it is a magick effect. Unless you want to start ruling Magick can be defended against because you are drunk and covered. (which means most of our group would be fine against a coven of casters) Smile inebriated as they are.


Your example of the potions in wine and the Miscibility tables you mentioned offers an Alchemist an extra avenue of attack, the Alchemical overdose. Force a disastrous miscibility event on someone. If you want to go down the route of toxicity then you will have to expect some attempt at using the same rules as an attack.

So my long post was to point out, It's Magick. It does not have to make sense and we don't need flask breakage rules and glass smithing costs. It's just Magick and will behave the way the caster intended.


Now as for the Stun Rating effect and the Damaging attack. A simple solution is to have the potion work for more than one turn. First turn the Stun rating is lowered, any damage is rolled against the original stun rating. The second turn the damage is rolled against the lowered Stun rating and the victim drops. This is allowed in the rules. The Alchemical gas/powder/mist hangs in the air and affects the person for a second or third turn. It's still easy enough to define the spell under the chart.
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The GIT!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, understood and agreed about the flasks etc.

The noxious gas continuing to do damage over an extended period of time may be an option for your reduced Stun and damage effect. I'd still rule that on the first round damage is calculated against his unmodified Stun rating. If he successfully resists being stunned the chances are he won't stay in the gas for the next round but, hey, lock him in a room and perhaps he doesn't have a choice.
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is his best bet, as long as he can get out of the radius in a few seconds on his turn.

The other thing I was wondering, if he has a Stun rating of say 3, and you apply a -4 to it, is it 0 or -1, and what is the effect of having a 0 or begative Stun rating? Will thye feel shaky? any ill effects?


For that matter, let;s look at other Secondary Stats. Apply a -10 to Perception. Are they blinded? lost in a fugue state? interesting options here for a caster. Nastier alternatives to casting a fireball.
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Althalus and Raikenclw were talking about battle bottles and special flasks.

My intention was just to outfox TheGIT as GM Wink - he won´t allow combining effects, so I found a way to combine them still, but without magick. If a GM allows combining effects, there´s no need for that.

But my take an Alchemy is - as you know - a lot less 'magickal' than yours. Wink
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Althalus, once an Alchemist spell starts running, do you allow it to be turned off at will? or does it have to run its course?
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like a chemical reaction, the spell has to run its course - unless the reaction is stopped by external means. This means, if the Alchemist wants to stop the effect of, say, an acid, he has to apply a base or an antidote for a poison. This doesn´t necessarily have to be another spell.
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The GIT!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Althalus wrote:
Like a chemical reaction, the spell has to run its course - unless the reaction is stopped by external means. This means, if the Alchemist wants to stop the effect of, say, an acid, he has to apply a base or an antidote for a poison. This doesn´t necessarily have to be another spell.

You see CanuckAlchemist, great minds think alike Wink
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