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grabbing items

 
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:01 am    Post subject: grabbing items Reply with quote

The topic of the enchanted dagger got me thinking. If an enchanter was on a rooftop looking across the street and into a window of the building next to him, could he use an animation spell to animate an item to fly to him? Sort of a reverse dagger enchant.

It is similar to animating a targets sword and having it attack him, or his clothes etc as discussed in the runeslinger thread.

I was thinking of having a book flap and fly from the room through the open window and to the magician. Or could something just float out? IS it an animation spell? a transportation spell?
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That´s one of the things that got me wondering about a "RG to Magic" - the thing about a free-form magic-system is, to have a solid base. As it stands, there are only two things that are clear, IMHO: only Benignus can heal and Alchemy can do anything.

Your example of the self-fighting dagger illustrates this perfectly. What components does such a spell consist of?
If only Transportation does move things - Enchantment couldn´t.
But if Enchantment can - what good is Transportion for?

Quote:
I was thinking of having a book flap and fly from the room through the open window and to the magician.

A book can´t take to air by flapping its cover. Pure physics.
And that´s the problem - you could make the book lighter than air with Enchantment, but how would you steer it?
IMHO you would have to add a Transportation spell for that - but in that case you could move the book by that alone.
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted an idea once that an enchanter could enchant bandages to heal, sort of a solid potion to look at it in an Alchemical sense.

I would argue that Alchemy and Enchantment are the most flexible Arts. I would argue that Enchantment mimics the potionwork of Alchemy but with inanimate objects. Of course I think that the description of abilities is not all inclusive, just examples of what an enchanter can do.

The skill bonus to Melee shows he can enhance skills like a Homomancer, so other skills can be enchanted, IMHO.

Damage bonus like a geomancer, Armour bonus like a Benignus or Alchemist or transmuter (actaulyl hardening the clothing to steel strength). Speed boost is a Homomancy effect.

Animation is a transportation effect as you mentioned.

Underlying all this is the understanding that the 'spirits' or energy that powers all spells is all the same stuff. It is just through the different lenses and approaches that magicians have artificially categorized what magic can and cannot do.

As for the book not being able to flap and fly because of pure physics, who cares about physics? it's magick. A dagger should not be able to float around on its own and attack either, whether an enchanter or a transporter cast the spell. A man should not be able to teleport instantly 10 miles, or fly himself for that matter, but in AFO they can by invoking the energy of magick. We know what happens is against the physical laws of the universe. That's why we are not using the physical laws, we are using the Magicakal laws.

Now if I had posted a spell scenario of a transporter mage casting a spell to make a book teleport from the table to his hand, or have spirits fly it to him, would you complain about the physics then? Probably not. The flapping book was just a visual fluff aspect to use a showy example of magick in use.

I could go old school and enchant the carpet the table is sitting on to become a flying carpet and fly the whole kit and caboodle out the window. (Since flying carpets are a great example of historical non-physics following aircraft) Razz


Actually, come to think of it. An enchanter or a transporter could probably enchant a flying carpet.

Base: 2
Range: 0 (if they are riding it themselves or distance if they are guiding it to them)
Duration: 0 12 hours
Area of Effect: 0 (Individual carpet) or +2 for a carpet that can carry 4 people
Effect: 2 (Size 1, up to 1 tonne capacity
Rating: 6

Result is a carpet that can carry 4 people. So the magician can give lifts to his buddies. And be hunted across the countryside by crossbow wielding Inquisitors. Razz

Might have to Increase Effect to allow for Speed increase. Not sure how to do that in a single spell.

Depending on the airspeed of a laden carpet you may be able to get across the Channel faster than the Cardinal's ship, thus saving the day.

It's slightly more mundane than having the teleporting mage teleport everyone 10 miles in 30 seconds of casting. Not as fast, but has a slightly better 'cool' factor.
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
who cares about physics? it's magick.

The thing is: If you use different arts, they should do something different - or they would be obsolete.
So, if the enchanter needs to manipulate matter, he can make something lighter or heavier, rigid or flexible, etc. But he would be always within some bonds of normal physics - he can make the book/carpet lighter than air and make it float, but the book can´t fly by using its cover as wings.
The one thing the enchanter can do, that is not hampered by 'physics' is animating an object. That´s his real strength (and I´ve played that kind of mage in AGONE, animating a statue to kill the bad guy - it´s really nasty Twisted Evil ).

The transporter doesn´t need to care about that - he just makes it fly, teleports it, etc.

The aeromancer would be the one turning it into some kind of bird - by giving the air under it more substance and 'lifitng' it up.

I agree that all the things you mention are within the rules - to me that just makes the whole tradition/art-concept useless. To me every tradition should be capable to get the same results - in different ways.

What would be the purpose of having different mages within the group, if they could all do the same spells (even if - ruleswise - they can)?
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the arts do do different things, and achieve their ends in different ways for many effects. But there are bound to be overlaps, there are only 4 charts in the rules of magick. The mechanics of magic are the same, as is the underpinnings (the spirits, which are not really individual spirits, magicians just see them that way). The trappings are different.

Opening a hole in a wall. A geomancer can part the walls, and put it back in one piece so you never knew it moved.
An Alchemist can melt it, transmute it to air, or explode it. Putting it back in one piece, not likely, unless you get tricky with the transmutation.
Pyromancer: Boom! for the win.
Transmuter: same as Alchemist
Transporter? : Hmm. maybe teleport a few hundred pounds out of the way. Or fly over the wall. teleport inside.

Enchanter: make a section of wall animate and swing open like a secret door.

Hydromancy: Umm make a jet of water blow the wall apart, or wash out the mortar or magickally wash out the mortar or underpinnings. mumble.

Same-ish results for some effects, all getting the job done. With the more blatant effects causing Inquisition issues.

As for being obsolete if they are not completely different, why? If there is overlap, who cares? If a hyrdromancer can come up with a spell that floats him across a river like a waterskier, or a transportation mage skims the surface of the water to get across, does it matter? There are lots of differences in the Arts as well. A hydromancer can create water whereas a transport mage can teleport to water. Both can get water, but in different ways using the same energy. A faunomancer could maybe summon an animal that is nearby and squeeze water out of it. (ick)

As for the book example. If I want a book from a table to come out the window I can (if my art allows me that flexibility) order the spirits to do so. The trappings of which will be up to me and the Art. So an aeromancer might create a small tornado that spins around and bobbles the book over to him instead of trying to generate enough lift to naturally fly it to him using lift equations.

A transporter could teleport it, or just have spirits quietly (as opposed to a mini tornado whistling overhead) carry the book.

Cryomancer: rather than summoning ice spears to pierce armour, how about a halberd length shaft and shovel end to scoop up the book? Why not?

Floromancer: have a vine reach a tendril in and pass you the book, or have the walls and doorframe do the same thing. (which would be an animation effect really)

And I don't see why a dagger can be made to float without flapping or changing its weight and a book cannot. Ignore the trapping of flapping and you have imbued spirits into the book to move the book to you. No change in mass required. Just magick.

I added the flapping to add trappings in my description, they may get a bonus Style point if they are good within the storyline, but I do not think they are necessary in terms of explaining how the book gets off the ground by flapping its bindings.
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If there is overlap, who cares?

Because players tend to use only what is most useful - Transportation being an art, e.g., that´s useless in that case. If they can achieve the same results with any other art, that also offers a lot more options for causing havoc - why choose transportation?

Fauna- and Floromancy would be the next candidates for the drop-list.

Is that a kind of powergaming? Yes.
But with the limited skill-points and the necessity of a specific talent it´s a natural notion to choose an art, that´s got the broadest application-possibility.

So, as there are no rule-bounds to prevent this (and that´s good IMHO!), there has to be some kind of narrative cause for not having only alchemists and enchanters as PC-mages.
To me, enchanters are more like non-chemical-alchemists. I apply to them similar hindrances as their magic is based on matter.
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I disagree with your idea behind Enchanters using physical rules, but we can agree to disagree. I see the enchanter as being of magic fetishist tradtion (well, Art in AFO terminology). The object is where the magic is placed. It is an overtly magical act and as such IMHO physical aspects are not the primary concern.

Of course I see Alchemy in much the same light. Despite the statements to the effect of the magic must be possible in a chemical sense. The alchemical process and effects are magickal in nature. Wiggy even commented on this when I had the thread on Alchemy and humours. Blood separates out into the 4 humours of Alchemy, and I made mention on an idea that if an Alchemist had no chemicals, just some empty vials he could draw blood, let the blood settle and do alchemy with the four humors.

Alchemy also gets very magical in transmutation effects of lead into gold, and the life extenion/immortality aspect of the Philosophers Stone. Unless the Alchemist is keeping a linear accelerator in his lab kit the transmutation is magical. And unless the alchemist suddenly has an insisght into telomeric therapy and stem cells the philoosophers stone life extension delves into pure magic again.

I guess I do not see the issue of overlap between aspects of various arts, or of having the entire system be magical and not having to follow physics.
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I guess I do not see the issue of overlap between aspects of various arts, or of having the entire system be magical and not having to follow physics.

Not an issue - just a different take on things and different experiences.
I don´t know, if you have former experience with free-form-magic as GM. I do (I´ve written some RPG-systems myself, two of them with a similar magic-system, and mastering AGONE, where magic is extremely powerful) - and at least with my players there always came the time, when the mage-players began to get the hang of how to build the most powerful spells - which naturally led to drop some aspects altogether.
It just happens - but the magic-system of AfO COULD circumvent this, if the Arts got a bit more fluff. The paragraphs are just too short, leaving to much room for discussions about very basic things.
Quote:
Blood separates out into the 4 humours of Alchemy,

As humoralpathology is one of my research-fields, I can tell you that it wasn´t meant to. Wink But that´s just a thing where history and fiction differ and therefore has no real relevance in gaming.

Alchemy is written as "can do anything the other Arts can do - as long as it is somehow based on chemical processes and substances". So, we had an alchemical powder to protect us against magic and acid to burn through a door in our yesterday session, truth-inducing dust, healing potions and even stone-melting dust that got in handy against gargoyles.
It´s easy for the players and the GM - tell me how you can get the effect into some kind of chemical and how you apply it, and I will allow it.

That´s what I wish for all the Arts - an easy way for the player to describe, how he gets the desired effect with the tools of his Art. So that questions like yours are not necessay anymore - because it´s all crystal-clear. Wink

On the other hand that would stop very interesting discussions ... Rolling Eyes
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Alchemy is written as "can do anything the other Arts can do - as long as it is somehow based on chemical processes and substances". So, we had an alchemical powder to protect us against magic and acid to burn through a door in our yesterday session, truth-inducing dust, healing potions and even stone-melting dust that got in handy against gargoyles.
It´s easy for the players and the GM - tell me how you can get the effect into some kind of chemical and how you apply it, and I will allow it.


Lol, my first overt use of alchemy was to burn through a wooden door. The party had already had some tonics given to them, stimulants to keep them aware. (actually a fighting skill potion).

I like the stone melting dust idea, will steal that one.

I am interested in the anti magic potion, what was the story behind it, and what chemical basis was used? And do you happen to know the stats for the spell?
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am interested in the anti magic potion, what was the story behind it, and what chemical basis was used?

I wrote a follow-up on "Force Majeure", playing on the killing of Baron Visconti which Baron Reims used to frame them. First they cleaned themselves of the accusations, getting an official 'letter of investigation' from Richelieu himself to uncover the one behind 'the foul framing of loyal musketeers of His Majesty'.
Eventually they blew up a blasphemous ceremony, getting a lead on a secret meeting of the more influencal members of the L´Ecole de Nuit at a masquerade.

As they had encountered the mind-altering methods of their enemies, the alchemist mixed up a drug, that would stabilize the mind against such influences, applied by inhaling the fine dust.

It was a rather simple spell, giving an opposed pool against homomantic mind-influence.

Ironically they didn´t need it at all - a pistol ball through the hand of Baron Reims and another one to the thigh of his assistant solved the 'magic problem' - Reims is on the run, his assistant got two feet of Toledo-steel between his ribs ... Wink
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the dust was good vs a Willpower attack? or All homomancy spells? or all mind affecting effects? What was the chemical analogy? Ritalin? so nothing affects the focus of the user?


That's a neat idea.
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
or all mind affecting effects?

As the alchemist didn´t know, HOW their enemies manipulate humans, she formulated the effect in that way, yes.
Quote:
What was the chemical analogy?

'Keeping the mind clear and strong' - a very common aim in humoralpathology. In this case it would have been something along the lines of caffeine, in 'driving off mind-clouding' and helping staying focused.
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