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Enchanted Dagger
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Enchanted Dagger Reply with quote

I've been thinking today about an Enchanter with an enchanted weapon from pg 118 of the book that is animated to fight on its own.

I was wondering what the parameters of the spell would be, and the limitations or abilities of the weapon, and of the spell preparing it.

Animated Dager spell

Base: 2
Range: 0 ( he can touch the dagger while preparing the spell
Duration: 0 (12 hours extended duration)
Area of Effect: this I have a question about. Would the spell be an Area spell or a People spell. If area I would assume it would be animated and be required to stay within the circle of the caster. Would it move with him? (I would guess yes), or is the animation only useful if cast with a short term duration?

On the other hand would the spell be good against a certain number of people/ potential targets since an Area of effect spell affects everyone within an area, and you do not want your animated dagger attacking friends.

Effect: 0, using the size category since the dagger is smaller than a person.

Rating: If a 12 hour spell is possible you are looking at a Rating of 2 + the AoE number. This is a nice extra weapon that will get you killed on sight as a witch if seen using it. Razz (It's just a cool thing to have floating around you)


When using the dagger can you direct it to different people, have it do disarms? Can the dagger be 'killed' by your opponent and end the spell?


Can the dagger be controlled during the fight to change targets or give new instructions? or is it a fire and forget? Could it be used as a trap or guard, leaving it instructions of "Kill anyone but me who walks into this room." as an example.

If you animated a crossbow bolt or arrow could it 'shoot' itself to a ranged target? or just float slowly along and then stab into a person?

What stats does an animated weapon use for fighting? the casters?
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Enchanted Dagger Reply with quote

CanuckAlchemist wrote:

When using the dagger can you direct it to different people, have it do disarms? Can the dagger be 'killed' by your opponent and end the spell?


I've yet to see anyone kill a dagger, animated or otherwise. Better to use a Trick and imbed it into a wooden object, or wrap it in a cloak.

Quote:
Can the dagger be controlled during the fight to change targets or give new instructions? or is it a fire and forget? Could it be used as a trap or guard, leaving it instructions of "Kill anyone but me who walks into this room." as an example.


I'd allow a Move action to control it and move it. Giving up your Attack action to use the dagger isn't much of a trade-off, though there are times it could be handy. Without control, it just hangs around idly.

Quote:
If you animated a crossbow bolt or arrow could it 'shoot' itself to a ranged target? or just float slowly along and then stab into a person?


No reason it can't fire itself, but reloading would be more complex as someone would have to put the bolt in.

Quote:
What stats does an animated weapon use for fighting? the casters?


You'd have to buy it a dice pool under Effects. You're just granting an object with Melee 0 a Skill pool.
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've yet to see anyone kill a dagger, animated or otherwise. Better to use a Trick and imbed it into a wooden object, or wrap it in a cloak.



But if the animated dagger can fight by iteself, can it wriggle out of the cloak or unimbed itself?


Quote:
I'd allow a Move action to control it and move it. Giving up your Attack action to use the dagger isn't much of a trade-off, though there are times it could be handy. Without control, it just hangs around idly.


Is control through a spoken word or a thought? Since it fights for iteself it seems a bit of a fire and forget item unless you want to change targets. And animating an item at a distance (which was discussed in another thread about stopping a fleeing man) is possible, beyond voice range really, so control of an item is an interesting concept.

Hanging around idly would be interesting to see, a dagger just floating, rather spooky for folks to witness. I'd put it into a sheath myself and then throw it at someone and have it attack them, over and over again. Razz

Quote:
No reason it can't fire itself, but reloading would be more complex as someone would have to put the bolt in.



I had not considered needing a crossbow or a bow to launch an animated weapon, If a dagger can fly through the air to attack a target with lethal force, why not an arrow? I guess it depends on how fast the animated item is allowed to move, which may well be a GM call. Perhaps a crossbow would launch the bolt closer to the enemy and then it would auto-target them. If the bolt hits, or misses, could it pull out of the wound and try to do more damage? twist in teh wound to do more damage the following round?

For the dice pool, rather than using the Size 0 category, use the Opposed dice column to give the item a better chance at hitting? That is a nice idea. It makes the item more dangerous the longer you enchant it, which is nice.

And for the nastier side of things. Enchant the item a second time to increase damage, which we discussed in another thread as well.
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You'd have to buy it a dice pool under Effects. You're just granting an object with Melee 0 a Skill pool.

I would use the Melee/Fencing rating of the caster - because the weapon can´t fence better than the one controlling it.
Otherwise you would have to make it a sentient being, IMHO.
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CanuckAlchemist wrote:
But if the animated dagger can fight by iteself, can it wriggle out of the cloak or unimbed itself?


Not unless you give it some way to escape, such as Dexterity or Strength. That could be a single round spell -- telekinesis, effectively, to tug it loose.

Quote:
Is control through a spoken word or a thought? Since it fights for iteself it seems a bit of a fire and forget item unless you want to change targets. And animating an item at a distance (which was discussed in another thread about stopping a fleeing man) is possible, beyond voice range really, so control of an item is an interesting concept.


Depends on how you and your GM view it. It could be words, it could gestures (like the Force). I wouldn't force this every round -- only when you need to physically move the dagger, such as to a new target.

Please note I'm assuming you want the dagger to largely attack on its own so you can do other things. If you want to have it remote-controlled, an extension of your Melee Skill, then you'd have to give up your Attack action to attack with it.

Quote:
I had not considered needing a crossbow or a bow to launch an animated weapon, If a dagger can fly through the air to attack a target with lethal force, why not an arrow? I guess it depends on how fast the animated item is allowed to move, which may well be a GM call. Perhaps a crossbow would launch the bolt closer to the enemy and then it would auto-target them. If the bolt hits, or misses, could it pull out of the wound and try to do more damage? twist in teh wound to do more damage the following round?


Sorry, I read crossbow and missed the rest. Yes, a lone arrow/bolt coul be made to impale someone. Personally, I'd make arrows a one-shot spell -- once it hits, it's imbedded. You could try to convince your GM to allow on-going damage (the twisting part), but I can't see him allowing that -- the rules say it should be used rarely, if at all.
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Last edited by TAG Wiggy on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Althalus wrote:
Quote:
You'd have to buy it a dice pool under Effects. You're just granting an object with Melee 0 a Skill pool.

I would use the Melee/Fencing rating of the caster - because the weapon can´t fence better than the one controlling it.
Otherwise you would have to make it a sentient being, IMHO.


I'd say it depends on exactly how the dagger is being manipulated.

If you want to control it yourself, so as you can fight at a safe distance from your foe, then I'd rule you have to forfeit your personal Attack action -- you attack with the remote-controlled dagger. It's a simpler spell to cast (Size for Effect, not a die pool), but it comes with its own price. If you use your Attack action for something else, the dagger doesn't do anything.

For one that fights by itself (with you merely picking targets and using a Move action to give it orders as needed), then you need to assign the spirit you placed into it a Melee pool or its just a floating lump of metal.

YMMV. Smile
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For one that fights by itself (with you merely picking targets and using a Move action to give it orders as needed), then you need to assign the spirit you placed into it a Melee pool or its just a floating lump of metal.

Right - but wouldn´t you have to 'build' something like a conciousness into the damn thing to make it fight by itself? And some senses? Twisted Evil

To my understanding, a weapon that fights really by itself is a thing of necromancy - having a demonic spirit bound into it, who controls it.

An Enchanter just manipulates matter - making it stronger, lighter, shinier, etc. or controls its behaviour, like remote-controlling a weapon from a distance.

I would even go so far as to require a seperate take on things:
Make it float
Make it fight
Make it controllable

The necromancer may opt for the first two as workings of the spirit inside the object, but would still need to keep a firm grip on it. The enchanter would have to manipulate the object in all three ways to get his desired effect.

Yes, I´m a GM from Hell when it comes to magic, using free-magic systems for years. Twisted Evil


Last edited by Althalus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ceremonial, Natural, and Theurgical Magick are all concerned with spirits. Enchanters are no different in that regard.
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ceremonial, Natural, and Theurgical Magick are all concerned with spirits.

Ah, forgot about the tradition. My bad.
But aren´t they concerned about different kinds of 'spirits'?

I didn´t see them all as sentient beings, more like allegorical figures.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little from column A, a little from column B. Smile
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Althalus

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, there still seem to be some RGs missing, Wiggy - like the "RG to Magic". Cool

Not to mention some sourcebooks for France and the rest of Europe, etc.

Wink
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am still wondering about the Area of Effect section of the spell, and its impact on the dagger.

Base 2
Range: 0 (item can be touched while enchanting
Duration: 0 (12 hours extended duration)

Effect: 4 (8 Opposed Dice for Combat rolls)

What column for Area of Effect? I can make an argument for all of them. And each idea has implications for the power of the spell

0: Individual: The dagger can attack only 1 person at a time, changing target requires new instructions from the caster. (Verbal, somatic, however the GM and player agree on what looks coolest.) How far away the dagger can fly/float and attack is not specified in the spell. Could you have a floating sword guarding a bridge, slowing people down while you fled the scene? Or could you see someone at a long distance and send the weapon chasing after them?


2 +: Limits the total number of targets the dagger can attack, so if you give a +2 complication you can attack 4 total people and then the spell ends.

OR Area of Effect

The dagger has a range of motion within an area of effect centered on you, so if you move out of the area while the dagger is fighting an opponent it must either

a: follow you to stay within your area of command or
b: stops working and either hangs motionless in the air until you get back within command range
c: stops working and falls to the ground or
d: keeps fighting, but you cannot change targets or give new commands until you get back within range.

How the spell manifests and works will have a huge impact on how teh spell can be used. I have posted an extended duration spell version, and am seeing it as having a dagger ina sheath that can be thrown at a person, and have it autotarget the person and keep fighting.

Deciding how the spell works changes the complications needed. If you want an Area effect then you are adding +4 or +8 complications to allow for a battelfield wide area of control. For an on the fly spell this can add a long time to casting time, or force a spell that has the dagger floating next to you.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Range: I'd actually use this for determining the maximum distance the dagger can travel from you, with the caveat that if you can't see it, you can't change its orders. After all, it isn't clever (or a D&D spell), so saying "attack anyone who comes near" isn't going to work. It needs manual help. Pretty much works out to +2, as you're unlikely to be able to see 500 feet in an unobstructed line in most locales, but you can probably see 11 feet.

Duration: 12 hours extended (+0)

Area of Effect: Individual (+0). It's one dagger.

Effect: You mentioned a +8 Melee pool, so we'll stick with that (+4)

Total Complications: Base 2 + 6 add-ons
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The GIT!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...I'm not so sure I would use Range to determine how far the dagger can travel from the Magician. I think I would use a combination of Range and Area of Effect - Range determines how far away the focus of the spell is and the Area of Effect determines how far the dagger can operate from the focus. Thus, if the dagger to be enchanted happens to be worn on a person 400' away you'd use +2 Complications for Range and then determine the Area of Effect that the dagger can move from the place at which it became enchanted.

I don't really think there is a right or wrong way for this. That's one of the great things about the AFO Magick system - it's very easy to tweak it to the individual style and effect the GM is trying to achieve in his game.
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CanuckAlchemist

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the range attribute being the range within which the magic can be controlled.

Enchanting is a little odd in that it involves inanimate objects, so the individual target of the spell IS the dagger, not the person you are attacking. So the Area of Effect column is not the correct column. The 'Person' being affected is the dagger, not the first target opponent of the spell.

Just had a thought. Could an enchanter increase his AoE complications and enchant/animate more than one dagger at a time? Have 3 daggers hovering around him for example? Or target three enemy soldiers and have their blades fly out of their scabbards and attack them for a scene? That makes it a much more dangerous spell. Might have to have an area of effect to target all the weapons within that area (+2 for a 10' radius, and another +2 for 3 blades. ) Nasty.

Having the people column used and allowing multiple items to be enchanted could make for very scary villains. +2 complications means 4 floating greatswords between you and the BBEG. Mon Dieu!


TheGit: Actually, to be a bit rules nitpicky, I think range would not be how far away the focus of the spell is but rather how far the focus of the spell CAN be, so UP to 500 feet as it says in the chart. The description of the villain running away on pg 122 shows that by picking 500 feet the villain may not have time to get beyond the range of the spell. So selecting a 500 foot range for a dagger allows for direction to be made to the dagger up to that range.

This answer is a little different than what is descibed in the necromancer's example of animating the 12 corpses, but let's just leave it alone. Smile
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