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Advantages of fencing and effect of bandoliers
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Nestor

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks you've got it figured out. Let us know how it works out with your group. Smile

That's the great thing about gaming. It follows the classic Star Trek paradigm: IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations).

Me, I want to play that one character in the short film Pyrats with the brace of pistols and grenade bombs. Twisted Evil
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TopGear

Deuce


Joined: 26 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olli wrote:


As fencer myself it is possible. Just d not thinking of blocking the axe but to change it's direction. Do not underestimate fencing weapons. With a foil or an epee or a rapier it is simple to do accurate and fast strikes at vital spots making them deadly in skilled hands. To strike internal organs with such a precision and leading to death or incapacitating an enemy by it is next to impossible with a great sword or a battle axe.


Well no, but the thing is, with a blade like that, you don't really NEED to be that laser-precise. Weapons like large cutting swords, halberds, pollaxes, katanas, and so forth are capable of cutting through bone and nailing several different vitals in a single blow--this is a MUCH more traumatic wound to the body than what is delivered by the thrust of most rapiers, even if you produce the thrust by twisting the blade as you withdraw.

Quote:
But since these medieval weapons are big, requiring lots of strength and an hit involves a lot of blood and flesh flying around fencing weapons are usually considered less deadly than the big weapons. Ok, this is another topic but also an explanation why this happens so often. But in the end it was not the longswords and it was not the great swords which remained on the battlefield.


Longswords actually remained on the battlefield for quite a while (especially if you count weapons that are probably long swords by AFO's measure: mortuary swords, Italian schiavona, basket-hilt claymores, and so forth), even very slightly BEYOND the rapier's heyday. Rapiers weren't used on the battlefield all that often--and honestly, swords of all sorts were really more like just sidearms. A soldier's primary weapon, if he wasn't a gunner, was more likely a pike, halberd, pollaxe, or other sort of hafted weapon. Very Happy

Anyway, enough of my nerdish weapon rambling. Laughing
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TopGear wrote:
This...is a bit of a game-changer for me. I'd been running with the idea that, unless a style came up that specifically stated other weapons besides them, Fencing was limited to the Rapier, Long Sword, Saber, and Small Sword. Laughing I just hope my players don't get annoyed when I tell them this! Embarassed

EDIT: May I ask then...what would be the point of Melee in such a circumstance?


Something for the common man, or the hero who wants no penalties. Character background will play its part as well. It's the same for HEX, where there is Brawl and Martial Arts (MA has a similar table to fencing). And as was pointed out to me by someone else (not on the forum), if a Musketeer loses his sword and reaches for his dagger or a handy pitchfork, he's basically useless unless he has Melee and Fencing. You also make it reliant on attending a fencing school, though that's harsh after the campaign has started.

Of course, my change is only written on the forums, not in the rule book. Smile You're quite free to say I have taken leave of my senses.
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TopGear

Deuce


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAG Wiggy wrote:


Something for the common man, or the hero who wants no penalties. Character background will play its part as well. It's the same for HEX, where there is Brawl and Martial Arts (MA has a similar table to fencing). And as was pointed out to me by someone else (not on the forum), if a Musketeer loses his sword and reaches for his dagger or a handy pitchfork, he's basically useless unless he has Melee and Fencing. You also make it reliant on attending a fencing school, though that's harsh after the campaign has started.

Of course, my change is only written on the forums, not in the rule book. Smile You're quite free to say I have taken leave of my senses.


Laughing Well, that makes sense. Though I do wonder if perhaps I should devise a custom Fencing School Resource that applies to Melee (much as the Pugilism Academy applies to Brawl)...
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget Firearms. Smile A Pistolier School could be handy.
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Inferno!

TAG Henchman


Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This scene from Rob Roy provides a nice demonstration of advantages of a light weapon vs. heavy weapon.
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TopGear

Deuce


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inferno! wrote:
This scene from Rob Roy provides a nice demonstration of advantages of a light weapon vs. heavy weapon.


I love that scene! Very Happy Though to be honest, I always saw that as more of a demonstration of the fact that in the end, it usually comes down to who has the greater skill at arms, regardless of the weapons involved. Wink ...Not to mention how badly arrogance can undo you if you don't rein it in! Laughing
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Blue Gopher

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya the lighter fencer had grater skill and could have easily won...On that note traditionally a heavier armored fighter A against a lighter armored fighter B...more often then not fighter B is going to win because fighter A cannot move as much or as quickly as B and is more likely to get fatigued sooner. I know this because I do medieval combat. I put on heavy plate armor and fight with a real long sword and I fight with sabers and rapiers as well. Remember also history also shows when the musketeers went to battle they had breast plat armor and carried a MUSKET...thats were they were given their name. Test have shown that plate armor will not stop a .50 cal musket ball so bring all the heavy slow armor you want. Speaking from a tactics point of view what fighter in their right mind is going to charge into battle with a little swish-n-poke or as we are called wire weenies if they could simply shoot them. End point AFO does a good job of balancing skill with weapon damage. However a point to note umbiquity is about cinimatic combat and ROLE PLAYING...if you want a game based on tactics and less on story go play DnD 4th ed.
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TopGear

Deuce


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue Gopher wrote:
*snip!*


Good quality armor shouldn't hinder you all that much, though--certainly not enough to outweigh the benefit of the armor.

And yeah--when my players are given missions where they're actually expected to encounter serious opposition in AFO, they get issued plate cuirasses gratis. Laughing One thing that sort of entertains me? You can actually recreate the Musketeer loadout from Deadliest Warrior in AFO if you save up enough to collect all the gear: Plate cuirass, rapier, main gauche, wheel lock pistol, flintlock musket, and a grenade or two. Very Happy
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The GIT!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really late on this topic and most things have been answered already. All I will add is that the "rapier" and smallswords developed as it became increasingly unacceptable in society to be seen wearing a big hulking sword. As has been mentioned earlier the rapier was rarely used on the battlefield where larger weapons still prevailed until the gun completely took over.

As for fencing schools; certainly the western martial arts covered a large number of weapons in their training (and they also included unarmed combat).

The Rob Roy scene that Inferno referenced is a great example of skill and speed vs brute strength (and it also showcases the pitfalls of arrogance). That scene was choreographed by Bill Hobbs who is one of my heroes. He also choreographed the Three Musketeer movies by Richard Lester (despite what people say these are excellent movies) and he, once again, shows a varied number of combat styles and the fatigue that sets in as the fights progress. Bill Hobbs actually takes part in the scene in which Porthos fights a "drunk" who uses a brace of rapiers (Hobbs being the guy with the brace of rapiers).

At the end of the day a game isn't just about numbers, it's also about setting and atmosphere. To truly get the feel of playing in France during the 17th Century the players should expect to conform to the social expectations of the time; otherwise the game just becomes like any other fantasy setting. Of course that may be what they want, in which case go for it.
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Runeslinger

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To turn the progression of soloists into a choir, I guess I will also belatedly add support to the aria that the use of rapiers and other forms of cut & thrust swords really is about evolution and the ongoing chain of tactical choices. The 17th century battlefield was significantly different from the 16th, and the weapons required changed with it. As new weapons were introduced, new responses were required. This doesn't make earlier weapon designs less deadly, it just makes them less probable in the setting.

These very changes made things like suits of armour obsolete, and the swords and other weaponry to deal with the men in that armour, unnecessary. Social changes took place at a diffferent rate, and as men were still expected to go armed, but would never be expected to deal with the armour of earlier periods, the arming sword in its various incarnations was all that would ever be needed for one's day to day, or even battlefield killing needs.

As the sword was relegated to a position of secondary or tertiary importance on the battlefield, and as its role in society became as much about fashion and class as combat, and as combat in society moved more and more toward duels, then honor duels, then merely fencing, then lawyers... the swords evolved from forms that favoured the incredible damage possible with the cut, to a form which favoured the thrust, which is the ability to provide accurate application of controllable force to points lethal or non-lethal, as the need required. That evolution would occur at all levels of society, and as the weapons sought changed, the weapons that were no longer sought, simply would not be produced in the numbers they were before... until they simply would not be produced.

This is, of course, not an evolution toward a superior weapon. It is simply an evolution or change from one requirement to the next. It is an evolution to a different weapon.

The evolution of fun in a roleplaying game is a whole different kettle of fish, and tends to be a much more localized phenomenon. Wink

If one's players will not be able to enjoy the use of certain genre elements in a game, by all means, as the others have wisely said, change the game.

If I might offer a simpler solution than changing a host of game stats, though, may I suggest that if they prefer to fight with that type of armour and those types of swords, perhaps shifting the time period to the 1300's? I think there could be incredible setting options during that time period.

If their reaction is predicated more on encountering villains with gear supporting methods and styles of attack from a century or more in the past, the purist in me wonders if perhaps the simplest solution would be to stop having them encounter villains like that? However, if such villains are a significant part of the plot, then I think characters would be totally reasonable in simply adopting the gear required to face down these foes... although in that case, it would probably be pistols and muskets, at range, wouldn't it?

That said, there is somehow much less satisfaction in rolling dice to shoot your foe than in rolling dice to best him at swordplay~!

Anyway, it is an excellent question, that gets asked a lot in any sort of fora where swords are discussed, and I am certain you were not the only one who wondered about it.
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Cole

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using Ubiquity's optional phase-based initiative rules (as found on p. 117 of the HEX book . . . surprised this did not make it into a swashbuckling variant of Ubiquity). The lighter rapier has a speed advantage over both a long sword, and especially over polearms. Not a tremendous difference, but it helps go beyond the more important style/roleplaying reasons as well.
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Cole

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am assuming that fencers who must choose which fencing discipline they practice when they buy the skill cannot select a specialization. For example, if I choose Fencing and then select Dardi school, would I then be able to specialize in rapier use within the Dardi school? That instinctively sits wrong, so I'm assuming this is not an option.

In other words, can I drop a 1/2 point into my level 1 Fencing at character creation to specialize in rapier and thereby negate any penalties associated with a school? That half-point would also double my bonuses.

Again, I'm assuming not . . . but hoped to get a ruling.
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing in the rules stop you doing that. But if you're disarmed or caught without your rapier, then your Specialization is useless.
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Cole

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, thanks for the clarification.

Rapiers are so much a part of this world, and I embrace them whole heartedly. However, the way the rules stand, there seem to be distinct advantages for a rapier wielder to go the Melee rather than fencing route.
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