Triple Ace Games Forum Index Triple Ace Games
ARCHIVE FORUM - POSTING LOCKED
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Advantages of fencing and effect of bandoliers
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Triple Ace Games Forum Index -> All for One: Régime Diabolique
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Olli

No Cards!


Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:01 am    Post subject: Advantages of fencing and effect of bandoliers Reply with quote

Hello!

I just took a look at the equipment again and then I thought: Why would I want to take fencing at all? Ok, it is a swashbuckling setting and therefore fencing weapons should be the typical weapons of the musketeers and therefore the PCs. But according to the rules I do not see a reason why somebody would voluntary take a fencing weapon. The only reason I see so far is style but that's it and to me it is not enough.

The longsword is better and the two-handed sword is much much better. With both weapons I can imagine flashy and cool fights.
Both weapons are used with the Melee skill and can be easily specialized.

Since Fencing Schools are more social clubs it is also more than likely that most teachers have a Melee Rating of at least 4 and therefore providing the teamwork bonus.

Before I will cut down the damage of the longsword (to 2L) and the halberd and the great sword (to 3L since it is powerful but slow) in my group I want to know wether I am not seeing an advantage of fencing weapons which makes them the choice for the PCs (apart from "Gentlemen use rapiers")?

Another question I have regarding the bandoliers. How many actions would you use less for reloading for using the apostles of a bandolier?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TAG Wiggy

Triple Ace


Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 5112
Location: I have flying monkeys, and I'm not afraid to use them!

PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fencing isn't just limited to rapiers, though that is the weapon of choice because it is light. A long sword could just as easily be used with Fencing -- it's just an uncouth weapon. Smile

I'd reduce the reload time by one round -- it still takes a while to reload, but that one round coul be the difference between life and death.
_________________
Wiggy
TAG Creative Director
Check us out on Facebook for all the latest news!

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Olli

No Cards!


Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you!
Now I see that my answer was wrong. In the end I should have asked why anybody should take a rapier.

Hmm the only reason I can see is style and that is not good enough for me. I think I will change the weapon stats for longsword, greatsword and halberd accordingly and disallow other weapons than sabers, longswords and rapiers from using the fencing skill.

With the lowered stats it makes sense to use lighter and accurate weapons.

Admittedly I am disappointed. I thought you created a swashbuckling setting but in the end you get punished if you play the typical swashbuckler with no armor and a real fencing weapon and who is very agile. Instead the best fighters are those with a lot of armor, a big weapon and lots of strength. Those do not have to waste valuable points for the talent Finesse Attack.

The setting is awesome but if you ever had the aim to create rules which not only allow to play a D'Artagnan but even encourage it then I am sorry to write this, then you failed. I am just glad that it can be easily fixed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nestor

Deuce


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An aspect you may be overlooking is the societal attitude. A gentleman walking down the street with a rapier at his side will not be looked at askance, but one hauling a greatsword will certainly cause concern. It's just not socially acceptable to carry military-grade weaponry (which things like greatswords and halberds qualify as) on general business.

A modern analogy could be a man carrying a sidearm in a holster as opposed to carrying a slung assault rifle. One's acceptable (assuming CCW regulations), the other brings the cops out quickly. Smile

A RPG is more than just stats and numbers, after all. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Olli

No Cards!


Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Nestor
Since I could not find any rules that wearing or using a long sword or a great sword is giving you a penalty on social rolls I cannot work with this argument. I am sick of dealing with soft penalties since as a GM I have to think of many things and therefore tend to forget these things. I am a fan of hard solid but simple rules.

In the end in a real fight according to the offical rules you have right now you do not want a rapier. You want a great sword or at least a long sword.

You want to play a real fighter in All For One then you should start creating the typical fantasy fighter with full plate and a big weapon who laughs at D'Artagnan swinging his toothpick.

Fortunately it is pretty simple to scale down the damage of the weapons so that although it does not encourage to play a PC like one of the Three Musketeers you will not be punished for it.
The setting is awesome and I definitely want to use it. I was just upset that according to the rules it makes no sense to me to play the typical musketeer with a rapier.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nestor

Deuce


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, we're delving into the roleplaying aspect of the game.

Yes, mechanically, it is much more advantageous to carry a big honking weapon and heavy armor everywhere you go, just as it would be most efficient for your modern-day hero to walk around wearing a bulletproof vest and hauling a AK-47 with him at all times. But any sane GM would disallow the former as much as the latter, regardless of the rules. It comes down to common sense and genre reality.

For me, RPGs are about enjoying the genre and acting out the role, not about having the highest stat or the biggest bonus. But that's a personal preference. YMMV.

In the end, it's your game, and you run/play it the way you want. If some part of the rules doesn't make sense to you, you're absolutely free to change or ignore it. The only hard-and-fast rule is: Have fun. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mitchw

Deuce


Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an issue with all Ubiquity games and most other games that use one roll to decide the attack and damage at the same time.

I would really like to see some rules where you roll your skill (with any to-hit bonuses) and then, once you have successfully hit, add/subtract any damage modifiers (weapons, armor, etc.) to get the final damage.

This still only requires one roll but now you have 2 things to calculate from that roll.

Mitch
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TAG Wiggy

Triple Ace


Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 5112
Location: I have flying monkeys, and I'm not afraid to use them!

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We may all have fallen into a trap, my friends! Smile

The Fencing Skill says "Fencing represents your character’s proficiency with different styles of swordsmanship and armed combat." Nowhere I can find (or now remember writing) rapiers or swords only with the Skill -- I may be wrong, but I've searched for "rapier" and "fencing" and read through the Fencing School Resource carefully (a few do use the term "swordsman," but that's a general term for "fighter" or "combatant" in the context). Now, it doesn't explicitly say "other weapons may be used," but listing swordsmanship and armed combat seperately implies it.

To whit, I hereby clarify, until proven wrong by someone finding a reference I missed, that Fencing actually allows any melee weapon, the same as Melee. Old fencing schools did teach a huge number of different weapons.

So why take Fencing over Melee if the latter gives no penalties? Are two bonuses balanced with two penalties better or worse than no modifiers at all? That would fall to players choice (the same as Martial Arts vs. Brawl in HEX). The Richelieu's Guide to Fencing Schools will provide new Talents requiring Fencing, but for now the field is open.

So why do NPCs and characters get rapiers instead of huge swords? That boils down to the game's style and period, not a hard rule. In that Nestor is spot on -- why wouldn't a pulp character wear chain mail and carry a big game rifle all the time?

As for the other points in this thread...

Full plate is heavy and gives a -1 Dexterity penalty (regardless of encumbrance), which actually reduces Defense and Initiative. Unless you have Strength 5, you'll always be encumbered as well, incuring further penalties. Other armors are also heavy, even if they give no Dex penalty. A hero in armor won't be able to wear it all the time. No rules are required for that -- common sense says you won't be attending a social function clad in armor even if you are M. de Treville.

So is Strength more important than Dexterity? Far from it. Dexterity already covers more Secondary Attributes, Skills, and Talents than Strength. By making Dex cover Fencing if anything you reduce Strength to more of a dump stat (only covers Move and two Skills). Anyway, that's a YMMV point. Smile

EDIT: None of this changes the fact that other weapons are more damaging than rapiers. That's just a fact of life. Weight, cost, and social mores all play their part in what weapons are considered acceptable in public, but penalizing social Skill rolls for having the wrong weapon doesn't work -- a tank character probably has no social Skills.
_________________
Wiggy
TAG Creative Director
Check us out on Facebook for all the latest news!



Last edited by TAG Wiggy on Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JohnK

Three


Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Posts: 281
Location: Ottawa, Ontario CANADA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Advantages of fencing and effect of bandoliers Reply with quote

Hullo, Olli,

Olli wrote:
Hello!


Hi, there! Smile Welcome to the forums for the All For One: Regime Diabolique rpg. You'll find the folks here are all really good eggs, and helpful to boot! Have a good time here! ALL FOR ONE! Smile

Olli wrote:

I just took a look at the equipment again and then I thought: Why would I want to take fencing at all? Ok, it is a swashbuckling setting and therefore fencing weapons should be the typical weapons of the musketeers and therefore the PCs. But according to the rules I do not see a reason why somebody would voluntary take a fencing weapon. The only reason I see so far is style but that's it and to me it is not enough.


I think the key to remember here is that the setting is one that simulates the real swashbuckling genre, adding the occult and fantasy elements to it, and thus the image of the swashbuckler is that of one that uses the lighter, more swiftly wielded swords for the purpose of fencing. This is one of the reasons I suspect for the use of the rapier as the typical weapon for fencing in the game and the genre.

However, you mention style here, and that's an important aspect of the game. Style Points, that is. The Ubiquity system in general is all about Style with a capital "S". It is one of the main ways that characters in the system can do the flashy kinds of things one reads about and sees in works of the swashbuckling feats, and the Fencing styles (and aspects of the Fencing Schools) are a good way of getting into the feel and style of the game, as well as rewarding players and their characters for acting within the swashbuckling context. Add the 1630s France element to this, and bien, c'est cool! Smile

Olli wrote:

The longsword is better and the two-handed sword is much much better. With both weapons I can imagine flashy and cool fights.
Both weapons are used with the Melee skill and can be easily specialized.


It's important to note that there's nothing in the actual All For One rulebook that states one cannot use a sword other than a rapier in Fencing. Nothing actually prevents you from using the longsword or the two-handed sword to do so. That said, these weapons are both extremely heavy, and to be honest, I can well imagine a character using these two weapons in fencing duels to get tired very, very quickly. Also note that as per page 129, first column, if the character does not have the minimum Strength to wield the weapons he suffers a -2 penalty for each point of Strength he is below on the weapon in question. (Personally, I've always felt that the STR requirements for the two weapons in question are definitely off, and would raise them somewhat, but that's another matter.)

That said, the easiest way to handle things is to establish that the different Fencing styles under the Fencing Skill have different Attribute requirements (either Strength or Dexterity or even Body perhaps), depending on the Fencing style, and some of these might be more conducive to heavier, less wieldy types of weapons. This is how I run it with my own game.

Olli wrote:

Before I will cut down the damage of the longsword (to 2L) and the halberd and the great sword (to 3L since it is powerful but slow) in my group I want to know wether I am not seeing an advantage of fencing weapons which makes them the choice for the PCs (apart from "Gentlemen use rapiers")?


The problem that you have in reducing the damage of weapons such as the longsword, the halberd, and the greatsword is that you will also have to proportionately reduce the damage of rapiers, daggers, and lesser weapons as well. It's ludicrous to think that a greatsword does the same damage as a basic axe.
_________________
"To die among friends. Can a man ask more? Can the world offer less? Who wants to live 'till the last bottle is empty? It's all for one, d'Artagnan, and one for all." - Athos (The Three Musketeers, 1948)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JohnK

Three


Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Posts: 281
Location: Ottawa, Ontario CANADA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hullo, Olli,

Olli wrote:

Now I see that my answer was wrong. In the end I should have asked why anybody should take a rapier.

Hmm the only reason I can see is style and that is not good enough for me. I think I will change the weapon stats for longsword, greatsword and halberd accordingly and disallow other weapons than sabers, longswords and rapiers from using the fencing skill.


All I have to say here is to ask why isn't style good enough a reason for you? When it comes down to it, style with a capital "S" is what this type of game is all about, and was a central element to all manner of swashbuckling epics historically, and in the literature and other media about the genre.

Olli wrote:


<snip, snip>

The setting is awesome but if you ever had the aim to create rules which not only allow to play a D'Artagnan but even encourage it then I am sorry to write this, then you failed. I am just glad that it can be easily fixed.


I would suggest that before you make that claim, you actually sit down with the rules and try to stat up D'Artagnan. You might be surprised. Smile
_________________
"To die among friends. Can a man ask more? Can the world offer less? Who wants to live 'till the last bottle is empty? It's all for one, d'Artagnan, and one for all." - Athos (The Three Musketeers, 1948)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JohnK

Three


Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Posts: 281
Location: Ottawa, Ontario CANADA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hullo, Nestor,

Nestor wrote:
An aspect you may be overlooking is the societal attitude. A gentleman walking down the street with a rapier at his side will not be looked at askance, but one hauling a greatsword will certainly cause concern. It's just not socially acceptable to carry military-grade weaponry (which things like greatswords and halberds qualify as) on general business.

A modern analogy could be a man carrying a sidearm in a holster as opposed to carrying a slung assault rifle. One's acceptable (assuming CCW regulations), the other brings the cops out quickly. Smile

A RPG is more than just stats and numbers, after all. Wink


Well said, Nestor, me old mucker! Smile

This game is definitely about more than stats and numbers, it's about style and panache! Smile
_________________
"To die among friends. Can a man ask more? Can the world offer less? Who wants to live 'till the last bottle is empty? It's all for one, d'Artagnan, and one for all." - Athos (The Three Musketeers, 1948)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Olli

No Cards!


Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All in all I think rapiers and fencing weapons are much better than their reputation. The Ubiquity system says that not only the biggest weapon is doing the biggest damage but light and accurate weapon also can do lots of damage (btw. the great sword is even giving a bigger bonus in All For One than in Desolation).

Wether I hit with a great sword somebody but not very accurately or strike a vital spot of my enemy with a rapier boils down to the same.
And there is no need to downscale other weapons since it worked just fine in 7th Sea as well. Only heavy weapons had a higher damage output but for them there were not that many fencing schools.

And style is one thing but I absolutely understand that my players want to rock and when I declare we want to play The Three Musketeers then they think of the movies with flashy blades and all that stuff. But when I give them an enemy which is more of an old-fashioned fighter with armor and heavy weapons and with about the same stats as the PCs then he is most likely to win against them and just because of the equipment which is considered to be old-fashioned.
I do not know how you guys feel but I would feel cheated if something like that happens.

I think about my musketeer and how I can make him a cool guy like Cyrano de Bergerac and then a medieval fighter proves to me that relying on the style of swashbuckling movies is plain inefficient. Just imagine a movie like The Three Musketeers where the heroes are being beaten up by a bunch of strong but slow guys with big swords and armor.
To me it is unthinkable!

I demand from a rpg that the setting and the rules are working together. So when I am going to play a setting which declares of itself "Expore a France of swashbuckling action, powerful magic, daring deeds, courtly intrigue, witty repartee and vile monsters" and also "...All for One mixes the action of literary works such as The Count of Monte Cristo and The Three Musketeers with horror and intrigue to a create a unique vibrant setting." then I am expecting that the rules are supporting this promise. But neither the Count of Monte Cristo nor The Three Musketeers were ever using armor and longswords or great swords.
When I think of swashbuckling and these two great works I think of style as well and then I want the rules to support this style (which they are not because otherwise it would mention that either I should hand out less style points to players using the superior but out-fashioned equipment or hand out more to players using inferior equipment with style.). Possibly the big weapons are better in reality (although I am far from being convinced) but when I am going to play a swashbuckling setting I am not really interested in realism.
And "The GM has to sort it out" is no rule.

@JohnK
How do I need to prove this claim? Create the best fighter you can think of with a rapier and a main gauche. Take the stats of this fighter, copy them 1:1 and then instead of rapier and main gauche you use a great sword and some armor. Who is going to win?

Or how about the duelist of p. 65, a flashy fighter with lots of style.
Replace his flimsy rapier with a great sword. His attack rating changes to 13L (since his Fencing rating is calculated incorrectly). Add a plate, Three-Quarters and an helmet, faceguard.
Then you get a 9 (head Cool as defense rating and no penalties for dexterity (oh, good point! I think that in my game armor will neither give any bonus nor any penalty. It will be just there for style.).

Now imagine that this modified fighter with the same stats as the duelist of p. 65 and the the duelist of p.65 are fighting against each other: Who will win?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nestor

Deuce


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said before, Olli, it comes down to play style (lowercase).

I can guarantee you that in one of my games, Mr. Clank-Clank-I'm-A-Tank-With-A-Big-Honking-Sword would not fare well against a well-heeled Musketeer, assuming equal skill. But that's because I would be rewarding the Musketeer player for doing things with, shall we say, panache. That's where Style (uppercase this time) becomes the deciding factor.

This is making me recall a story from way back in the mists of time. Steve Jackson had put out a preview release of the GURPS rules (called Man to Man) and a friend of mine and I decided to test them out.

I wrote up a duelist with rapier to go up against his Viking with a battle axe. My character won the fight, mainly because I was able to do things like parry the battle axe swings, something the rules allowed but which we both agreed would be almost impossible to do in real life. Go figure. Wink

There really is no wrong way of gaming, just different approaches. Do what you feel is best for your games. I'll repeat again the Gaming Mantra: Have Fun With It. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TopGear

Deuce


Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAG Wiggy wrote:
We may all have fallen into a trap, my friends! Smile

The Fencing Skill says "Fencing represents your character’s proficiency with different styles of swordsmanship and armed combat." Nowhere I can find (or now remember writing) rapiers or swords only with the Skill -- I may be wrong, but I've searched for "rapier" and "fencing" and read through the Fencing School Resource carefully (a few do use the term "swordsman," but that's a general term for "fighter" or "combatant" in the context). Now, it doesn't explicitly say "other weapons may be used," but listing swordsmanship and armed combat seperately implies it.

To whit, I hereby clarify, until proven wrong by someone finding a reference I missed, that Fencing actually allows any melee weapon, the same as Melee. Old fencing schools did teach a huge number of different weapons.


This...is a bit of a game-changer for me. I'd been running with the idea that, unless a style came up that specifically stated other weapons besides them, Fencing was limited to the Rapier, Long Sword, Saber, and Small Sword. Laughing I just hope my players don't get annoyed when I tell them this! Embarassed

EDIT: May I ask then...what would be the point of Melee in such a circumstance?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Olli

No Cards!


Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nestor wrote:

I can guarantee you that in one of my games, Mr. Clank-Clank-I'm-A-Tank-With-A-Big-Honking-Sword would not fare well against a well-heeled Musketeer, assuming equal skill. But that's because I would be rewarding the Musketeer player for doing things with, shall we say, panache. That's where Style (uppercase this time) becomes the deciding factor.


In my game this would not happen, because it is quite possible to fight with style and a longsword (just thinking of Aragorn in the Lord Of The Rings movie) or even a great sword. Why should the PC with armor and great sword, flipping and jumping around like the typical musketeer earn less style points than the musketeer with rapier and main gauche?

Quote:

This is making me recall a story from way back in the mists of time. Steve Jackson had put out a preview release of the GURPS rules (called Man to Man) and a friend of mine and I decided to test them out.

I wrote up a duelist with rapier to go up against his Viking with a battle axe. My character won the fight, mainly because I was able to do things like parry the battle axe swings, something the rules allowed but which we both agreed would be almost impossible to do in real life. Go figure. Wink


As fencer myself it is possible. Just d not thinking of blocking the axe but to change it's direction. Do not underestimate fencing weapons. With a foil or an epee or a rapier it is simple to do accurate and fast strikes at vital spots making them deadly in skilled hands. To strike internal organs with such a precision and leading to death or incapacitating an enemy by it is next to impossible with a great sword or a battle axe.

But since these medieval weapons are big, requiring lots of strength and an hit involves a lot of blood and flesh flying around fencing weapons are usually considered less deadly than the big weapons. Ok, this is another topic but also an explanation why this happens so often. But in the end it was not the longswords and it was not the great swords which remained on the battlefield.

Regarding strength it is possible that it becomes a dump stat. On the other hand melee will still be based on strength and therefore all other weapons.

Quote:

There really is no wrong way of gaming, just different approaches. Do what you feel is best for your games. I'll repeat again the Gaming Mantra: Have Fun With It. Very Happy


Yes, I will do that.
1. Max. bonus for heavy weapons and guns: 3
2. Max. bonus for one-handed weapons: 2
3. Cutting and deleting out any armor providing a bonus of +3 (except cuirass which bonus will be lowered to +2)
4. Fencing only for rapiers, longswords and sabers.
5. One weapon for each fencing school it's teacher may provide the teamwork bonus
6. Fencing is based on Dex
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Triple Ace Games Forum Index -> All for One: Régime Diabolique All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Protected by Anti-Spam ACP